Hot topic on the internet right now – Roger Oakland, of Understanding the Times, author of the hard hitting book against the emerging church "Faith Undone: the emerging church—a new reformation or an end-time deception", and anti-emerging church activist on YouTube, has been removed from his office at the Calvary Chapel Logos building and has lost his place on their radio station. PhoenixPreacher seems to be hosting the discussion and there is talk of the previous conversation regarding Chuck Smith and Chuck Smith Jr – not all the facts are in yet.
Anyone from Calvary Chapel know what’s going on?
Personally, I feel for Roger and prayed for him this morning. He seems like a sincere man although his teachings border on the extreme and he seems to reject most of the evangelical church as heretical and leading us all to Rome – from megachurch to seeker to emerging to prayer movements to YWAM. I said i would review his book last week but i ran out of time. I don’t think it would be appropriate at this time to do so. Maybe when things settle down for Roger and he finds a new place to office, then we can discuss the arguments in his book. I do think that his book is worth reading if you want to find out why some people really despise the emerging church movement. Roger did a lot of reading. Its his interpretation that I disagree strongly with, but that is to be expected.
Technorati Tags: emergent, emerging church, roger oakland
Andrew,
I sympathize with anyone who experiences the loss of their job. I do not know Roger nor am I familiar with his work.
However, I do want to comment on your post. I,too, have found much within all of these movements with which to disagree, and much with which to agree.
As to those who fear we are being ‘led to Rome’, I would suggest that we do owe a great deal of appreciation to brothers and sisters in Christ of that tradition. After all, the early church councils that resisted heretical teaching and helped define orthodoxy were from that tradition. We non-Catholics on this side of the Reformation owe a debt of gratitude.
As in every generation, I do believe there are significant doctrinal and practical issues to be discussed in this generation. My hope and prayer is that rhetoric and slander “by group” will cease to be the major influence and exegesis of Scripture and reasoning together will prevail to God’s glory and Kingdom.
As we on this side of the pond celebrate Thanksgiving, please know that I am thankful for you and your ministry. Every blessing to you, your family, and those within your scope of influence.
Thanks Ted.
I think many of us no longer see the church in denominational or organizational terms so the RCC/Protestant divide is not so sharp.
one thing i find interesting in this debate is that the biggest unifying factor in the past few decades between RCC and Prot. is the charismatic movement – with 150 million charismatic Catholics.
and of course calvary chapel has played its role in legitimating the charismatic movement.
emerging church movement on the other hand, with its emphasis on shared leadership over hierarchical leadership, has not made many inroads at all.
imho, to say the EC is leading people to Rome lacks substance
Andrew…
Thank you once again for embodying Christ-like graciousness for those who disagree with you. Your willingness to engage in intense but not angry discussion about important things is a model for my walk with Jesus.
I, too, have questions about some manifestations of the emerging church – but then again, I have some big “what the hecks?!” about big chunks of the ‘traditional’ church as well.
Either way, it’s nice to know that there are people out here who raise the level of discourse in the name of Jesus.
in Christ,
mark
aka pastor guy
I personally think the RCC/Protestant divide is an issue that most people have never really engaged in theologically in my generation, at least in most circles I churched with. I think it is a fruit of poor biblical teaching, cultural conditioning as it relates to “tolerance” and a general fear of offending that hamstrings any godly iron sharpening iron debate on the local level. I often wonder what on earth Luther would have to say in the emerging church “conversation”. I think he would still be labeled a “wild boar” today. Not that I am a “CHIC Track” guy at all but the issues that surround the gospel as far as the reformation issues go…are still really important to some of us out here.
One thing i find interesting in this debate is that the biggest unifying factor in the past few decades between RCC and Prot. is the charismatic movement
Agreed.Glad someone finally said it. If it wasnt for communion, Catholics and Protestants would (*or should*) get along fine.
Actually you try and put John McArthur and Brian Mclaran in one room and Andrew Jones and the Pope in another room and I gurantee you the former two will have more disagreements than the latter to would…
Of course, it only matters if he is right, and he is well documented. He is not alone, just as “Emerging” is not alone. There is a very large and growing body of evidence for his argument. I have, for many years, come into disagreement with the Evangelicals on the way they made history, but I am certainly not ready to jump onto the Emerging band wagon, which to me looks more like the creation of niche marketers.
But, as I said, it only matters if he is correct in his research, which I agree with. What this movement looks like resembles very closely both the Bible and Roger Oakland’s writings. It is worth while to read his book with an open mind.
Steve Blackwell
Of course, it only matters if he is right, and he is well documented. He is not alone, just as “Emerging” is not alone. There is a very large and growing body of evidence for his argument. I have, for many years, come into disagreement with the Evangelicals on the way they made history, but I am certainly not ready to jump onto the Emerging band wagon, which to me looks more like the creation of niche marketers.
But, as I said, it only matters if he is correct in his research, which I agree with. What this movement looks like resembles very closely both the Bible and Roger Oakland’s writings. It is worth while to read his book with an open mind.
Steve Blackwell
It bugs me when people do not do their homework when they have opportunity. I am in the midst of researching this “new” focus the church body is on – emerging – from some postmodern culture. Right, simply put it is just another way people are using to make excuses for desiring to have their ears tickled and believe a lie rather than the truth. So many people are focusing on trying to build the numbers in the church by any means possible. They are reaching way back to acultic practices which would have us believe that by doing certain rituals it will bring us closer to God. There is also the element of “brainwashing” going on in this movement similar to the what came of the Jesus Movement (which I came on the heels of) that if you did not speak in tongues you were not saved. Good thing the Scripture said the exact opposite or I would have walked away from Christ a long time ago.
The Word is our plumb line for today. If believers continue to push it aside replacing it with other writings (similar to the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness groups do), then they will suffer the ultimate fate noted in Revelations – they will not have a place in the final chapter.
Do your homework, research the people who are heading up this “new” focus and those who are opposing it – then measure it all by the Bible – I think you might see that throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good idea.
I am beyound thankful for men and women who take the time to speak up about the discrepancies so clearly visable in todays society.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If the Word is not spoken, read, studied, how informed will the people of this age be? Will they be able to test the spirits? Will they even recognize the Voice of God?
I am watching a society being prepared for a one world religion – sound familiar?
I respect the views of all, yet I do feel compelled to comment.
The Faith Undone book was/is something worthwhile for all Christ followers to take into account.
Sit up and pay attention; Oakland may be “extreme” but he makes some scarily true points.
The problems Oakland brings up against the leaders of the emerging church are backed up by their own statements. His reasons for disagreement with them come straight from scripture.
I admire that many in the emerging church want to reach out to people- I wish every church would focus more on that. Regardless, I cannot join the emerging church because their doctrine (their foundation) is wrong, it is against the Bible, and it shows up in subtle ways.
We cannot change the character of God and Jesus to suit our own needs, and still be left with the truth.
But don’t take my word, or Oakland’s, or Mclarens.
Just read the Bible.
The truth is in there.
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